Creative Minds Podcast - Episode 5 - 'Don't do free pitches'

cuz we work in quite a few sectors we might be approached about a project where we haven't got much experience in that sector so that I think often makes clients a bit nervous even though the process is often the same it's not we haven't specifically got work in that sector so you know sometimes that can be an advantage cuz they actually looking for you know fresh eyes and then sometimes it just you know they makes them a bit nervous cuz they they haven't they're not seeing exactly the same thing in your portfolio so um the few times that whether we've ended up getting a job they've actually then I think been really kind of pleased that they've gone with an agency who can bring a fresh take on it hello and welcome to episode five of creative minds I am joined uh this week by Charlie Smith of Charlie Smith design and we're going to chat about all things creative Charlie welcome to the show great thanks for having me um how did you come up with the name of the agency well tricky one well I guess in the beginning I just thought I was going to sort of be freelancer I thought it seems a bit weird as a freelancer to name yourself something else and then I granted got projects in and clients and then it felt a bit too late so I kind of got stuck with it yeah I thought about changing the name over the years but then I don't know we sometimes call ourselves sort of just CSD and shorten it but yeah kind of stuck with it and 20 years later pretty much 20 years yeah to the day almost really crazy so it's been going a long time now it's just you know you can't really change it now so yeah yeah 20 years Cong congratulations yeah I know yeah wind the clock back so you started 20 years ago but what what brought you to the point to get to starting the um the agency well I guess so I'd worked previously kind of for four years before that so started at pentagram for Angus Highland for a few years then worked at MB studio for a bit and then actually took a year off to go traveling right and so we sort of went spent a year in South America and then towards it was an amazing timing towards the end of my trip I got approached about a couple of jobs and I was sort of I'm still traveling but I'm back in 3 weeks and can do some work and it literally just like three jobs kind of landed in my lap almost it was kind of amazing get back and hit the ground running yeah and so I never actually I never planned to start a business or start op Studio it just I thought I'd come back and freelance for a bit and then I had these three projects s of straight away and it literally just kind of you know grew organically from that so right so I mean it sounds very easy I'm not sure where I can go when did it feel like you switched from freelance to actually kind of running a an agency even though it was obviously started small I mean the thing is I technically I ever I've never actually freelanced so that was the plan when I came back to kind of approach you know other Design Studios and and then literally I had these two projects I mean I didn't even know how to write a proposal at the I me it was I was so sort of I'd just been in designer really so I had never got involved in proposal writing or all the admin side of running a business so I kind of just that was a massive learning curve all that stuff and I did it totally wrong at the beginning and you know charg way too little and we you know spent way too much time and stay up till midnight doing the proposals and all that sort of thing because I just didn't really know what I was doing I knew how to do well you know I knew how to design stuff because that's the bit that I've been doing but the all the business side was a bit more challenging CU I guess that's well I presume that's not at design college no I don't you don't you know I feel like even in sort of schools and stuff you should learn more about sort of day-to-day management of things and finances and stuff but yeah so I didn't really know I I picked up I guess bits just from listening in or being part of a design team but never really you know written proposals or anything so it was a bit of a yeah bit of a learning curve at back to some of those early proposals is it quite cringeworthy yeah you know you sort of they were probably bit woly but kind of you know didn't really you pick stuff up so you go and then you chat to people and then you know friends who doing some of the thing oh yeah you have you know you chat about the process and I guess you learn as you go don't you and then yeah but great you were able to kick off with some clients yeah yeah it was amazing really I I think I was sort of right place right time really I was very lucky that these kind of great projects sort of came in and yeah just sort of went from there so can you remember what the projects were that first one yeah so one was um an identity for an architecture practice um one was a website for a kind of furniture designer and then another one was doing a sort of project for the VNA which wow with someone I've met at pentagram basically who kind of does exhibitions and I'm still working with today actually so we've done a lot of kind of projects together over the last 20 years so she just approached me and said I'm doing an exhibition at VNA do you want to do the you know the book and the exhibition Graphics I was just like sure you know W and actually that's the kind of work I've been doing doing at pentagram anyway so I was sort of you know it was sort of work that was familiar to me but obviously it was kind of me as you know as the studio kind of thing so I had these amazing projects at the beginning and then you know that was probably you know three or four months work sort of straight off and then it kind of just sort of Grew From there really yeah and I guess your work must have spoken for itself so the client got in touch and and off you went yeah I guess we' sort of had quite a good working relationship when I'd been at pentagram and then you know she yeah and then we just sort of got really well and then it kind of Grew From there really and like I said it's been 20 years of collaborating you know on lots of different projects so yeah it's been that's been really nice actually and I've I've always enjoyed working with clients kind of repeatedly and on multiple projects and you sort of just get to know them and you know kind of become friends in a way and you know collaborate on lots of things how important is that deeper relationship or client relationship with to to get to you know within the creative process and to do better work I've been very lucky that we've had lots of clients that we've ended up working with for a few years on like multiple projects and I'm I kind of enjoy that because you I guess over time you get to know well if they're part of a bigger organization you get to know like the ethos of the company really well you kind of you know you end up working quite collaboratively which I really enjoy and I think it sort of ultimately makes for better work or in my you know in my experience it has um and they sort of sometimes clients have really pushed us and you kind of end up getting it to a better place so um I really enjoy that collaborative process and getting to know people quite well and it's sort of more than just a kind of client relationship you're actually you know get on really well and enjoy meetings and I don't know yeah it's good I enjoy that kind of process of working with people you know in an ongoing basis I mean even just hearing you talk now Charlie you've got kind of a feels like a love and a passion for it are you are you still in love with the craft you your job title creative director yeah how much work work are you doing and how much of that are you loving my role sort of evolved a bit so in the beginning I was I guess the first let me think the first couple of years it was just me so I was doing all the sort of design side and the proposal sides and the admin side which and I found I didn't really enjoy all the it's just not my strength that kind of you know organizational side same for me you know it's just not what I you know so I I almost ended up slightly resenting the design side as well CU I was trying to squeeze that in to get the other stuff done right and so actually over time as I've like I employed a project manager about 10 years ago and that was almost a game changer for me it was almost like I can really get back to the bit that I love doing which is the design side and I guess over the years I've employed more people um you're kind of less Hands-On in terms of actually designing but because we're still a small team I get to oversee everything and I feel very closely connected to all the work even though I'm not a lot of the time I'm not actually Hands-On designing but I'm kind of very closely overseeing everything so sort of I guess my role has changed to it but I still feel like I'm doing the creative work every day somehow even though it's more of a sort of overarching thing I guess and and you're enjoying that yeah and I to be honest I almost prefer this part now because I love collaborating with people not just clients but with my team as well so it's that thing that you know you both kind of brainstorm and You by working with someone else you sort of get it to a better place I think so I enjoy that kind of I guess working partnership a bit with designers and you know with sort of wider team and if we take you know working with copywriters or photographers or illustrators just sort of that you know more people involved and just I think that collaborative process is yeah I me it's almost the bit I enjoy the most actually yeah what what do you feel makes the collaborative process I me it's something that you've already touched on a couple of times there what makes the successful collaborative process cuz some people will do their best work when they get their head down and you know go away and work work on something and come back seems like you're more in the other Camp it's more about collaboration so what works best for you and what would you recommend for people that want to collaborate more I don't know I guess you've got to be quite open to working that way and not being too precious about your own kind of ideas or your own vision for it so um yeah often and the designers I work with in our studio they you know we've been working together a long time so you kind of tively know how each other works and what people's strengths and I guess the areas they enjoy so you kind of you know we all have slightly different skill sets I guess so you I guess you kind of worked people's strengths a bit and I think we all as a team we all really enjoy working collectively rather than sort of too much in isolation I guess that's a sort of personal thing isn't it but um I don't really an answer to your question I don't know what makes it sort of most successful I think it's just being yeah not being too precious really I guess and kind of be willing to kind of you know often like what I'm thinking isn't necessar the right answer and it's kind of you know actually just going okay yeah fair enough that's you know I think that's not the best way to approach it let's try something else and I think just been quite openminded I guess if you're in a scenario and you think okay your approach might not have been best and it sounds like you've kind of are open to that but your name is going on that work you need to get your stamp of approval you as Charlie Smith as the creative director how do you cope when there's something that you don't necessarily think is right but the team might all be behind it the client might like it but you're perhaps not sure I think if everyone else is behind it the client and everyone in the studio is behind it then you just have to go okay well you know I'm not always right and actually you know maybe yeah so you I think I would then go with the majority totally but I mean in terms of yeah my name is on the door so to speak and everything going out the studio I've got to be kind of you know be to stand behind so if there's something that I don't think is I don't know right or the right sort of solution to the brief then I will you know I'll sort of put my foot down I guess or I'll not put my foot down but you mean I'll kind of we'll relook at it and we'll maybe go back a bit go back a stage and just make sure that actually it's the best solution um so yeah because you don't you just don't want to put work out there do you that you think isn't isn't right so although you're not proud of yeah yeah absolutely so generally I'm you know proud of you know everything that we put out there I mean so yeah so I think um you've got to be behind it and if it's not right got to kind of call it out I guess but yeah if everyone else thinks it's great and I'm a bit unsure then I I will totally kind of sit back and go okay you know yeah trust you on this one guys yeah yeah ex exactly exactly I mean talking about what that you're proud of is there something over the kind of 20y year period of of the agency being running that you're that you're most proud of I guess sort of in a more overarching way I kind of I like that we haven't been pigeon hold into one sector so we've continued to do exhibition stuff as well as kind of restaurant work and then kind of more kind of high-end sort of identities or you know we've done a whole breadth of work and I kind of like that we've done things in different sectors and obviously I guess sometimes some of the more challenging projects the ones you can where the process has been hard or the brief itself has been a bit tricky you kind of when you know that you've done a good job for that you kind of feel I guess quite proud that you've sort of managed to reach a good yeah good solution but we did a lot of work for Byron sort of work back in the day and that the burger about 10 years ago um they were great and we did worked for them for about seven years okay and I was really proud of a lot of the work we did and you know we were doing things like signage and stuff which we'd never done before initially so you know you just have to kind of learn a whole new kind of way of working and so what did it start with a sort of brand identity for them and then that became so we slightly inherited from kind of another designer sort of they' done a Rebrand and it was sort of very much a um it didn't really have strict brand guidelines it was actually meant to be quite fluid and I guess there was lot of um they had about you know four or five different logos and there was no set color palette no set type faces you know it was all very open so it was very much you know was that a good thing or a bad thing to work with I think it took a bit of time to kind of get into the swing of it actually but then actually then it really became a really creative process with um the kind of brand manager at the time who was there with the Architects kind of and the interior designer working on signage um so it was a very collaborative process with the clients as well so um I really enjoyed that sort of work and that period of time that we working on that cuz it I think we produced some you know work I was very proud of and actually our client really sort of pushed us and challenged us and was you know really kind of astute on typography and so you know you were kind of you know calling us out a bit if they didn't think it was right or like the subtleties of the typ faces weren't right or and it was really really kind of good working relationship I guess and then that just elevates the work and yeah and then you're just constantly striving to do better work I guess there's lots of things over the years that I've been proud of um trying to think more recently bit of a blank I have to cut this but out um think you know some we've done some charity projects that you know where it's been small budget you got to kind of make it kind of make it work um I think we worked with kugon estate for about eight years and done all sorts of different hoardings and you know annual reports and websites and it's I guess a bit more kind of commercial work but I feel like we've pushed it into quite a creative place and work very collaboratively with client there and often work a lot with illustrators it's nice when you can work with a a client even if they're you know slightly more corporate and then over time just gently gently push them offer up more Creative Solutions to problems and then when they when they go for it and you've slightly like moved the dial and the type of work that they put out it's really rewarding isn't it definitely and actually they then start looking at the briefs as well and they want to kind of go on that Journey a bit with you so yeah it's quite absolutely it's nice when you move them I guess into a different place yeah and then they get excited by kind of like oh yeah maybe we should use illustration for this or maybe we could do something you know kind of more dynamic or and you know you just like okay you know you sort of moved like you say I guess sort of moved the goalpost a bit which is which is really enjoyable and that's I guess the benefit of a long-term relationship as you can kind of you know in a way encourage them to be a bit braver and a bit Bolder with things and then they start seeing it differently and I guess yeah over time you're kind of going on that Journey with them I guess which is enjoyable so chli talk me through your kind of creative process do you does the agency have a set process or does you approach breathes differently each time how does it work um I guess we sort of have a process in that we sort of myself and Hannah my project manager we'll meet the client initially um and I guess once the Project's been signed off uh we'll sort of sit down with the designer or whether it's one or two designers working on it and kind of probably initially kind of brainstorm it a bit and then you know they'll maybe go off and do a bit of research and then we'll we check in all the time and kind of work very collaboratively on it um I wouldn't say there necessary set process and often I like at the beginning us to really kind of push it as far as we can and try lots of different just try loads of different things things that maybe you know don't necess seem right maybe they're too too much but it's almost better to kind of start wider I think and then I find is that is the client brought in at that stage or kind of doing it internally doing it internally and I think cuz when you're not actually designing yourself and you're you're kind of I guess being the creative director I find it much easier to work with the designers when if they pushed it quite a lot and it's like because you can see bits things they may have discounted you then can just see things than that and I think I find that an easier way to work so we generally kind of try lots of things pushing it quite far um and you know sometimes kind of work on kind of move boards as well sort of internally just to I don't scope out different territories and you know try I guess have a I guess we do have a bit of a process and then we would always narrow it down to kind of a few routes before we'd share with the clients I guess the Temptation is showing the client all these different routs which sometimes people can find a bit overwhelming how how do you deal with that do you just select a few or just hero one I mean work with different clients in slightly different ways I mean we never I know there's there's prob probably a confidence in showing one we never show one we usually would show three probably um maybe even four depending on what we've kind of agreed but I just think often to if you just show one and then they like like where' you go I guess but even if there's one that you feel kind of much more confident in sometimes it's good to show a couple of others to show why that one is definitely the best solution I guess P yeah yeah exactly or often you know they they don't totally know what they want anyway so you kind of need to show something that's maybe there a sort of this is a safer one but then you show them a couple of sort of slightly Bolder ones or slight more I guess how often does do the clients say oh we a bit of that and a bit of that oh every time every time yeah that part of the process isn't that yeah which generally is sort of when they're first saying it you're like oh God you know and then actually work through it and you do generally land in sort of some you know a better place I think you know cuz maybe I don't know when you you go through the process a bit more but yeah every time without doubt it's it's a bit of everything isn't it yeah something that we've started to do recently at Bear Jam is have a kind of um once we've delivered a project and it's done signed off we do a bit of a what we call a creative wrapup yeah and we get the team the internal team that's worked on it together and we kind of have a look at the proposal have a look at an early edit or and then the final version do you do anything like that is there any how do you kind of learn from previous work I guess we probably should do a bit more of that I mean generally we you know every often we'll sit down because there might have been like a designer cuz you know half our team work remotely as well so we're not always in the same room at the same time so you know sometimes a designer or two designers are working on project and the other designer won't have seen much of it so often we sit down then almost sort of bit of a show and tell I guess and maybe do a bit of that as part of that process instead of you know cuz Always by talking through the brief and the first Concepts and then where you landed and what the client thought you kind of I guess there's a bit of like oh yeah maybe next time we should think about doing it slightly differently or you know learning things I guess from clients we don't have an official thing I guess we do but we do often talk about that sort of thing just to like you say to sort of where did if things didn't go quite to plan how do you improve it for next time so what the learnings Yeah but sometimes I don't know if you're the same you're then if you're busy you're on to the next thing it's you know it's like making the time isn't it kind you've got to make the time to to actually do it and everyone commit to it and then you know hopefully you kind of get out what you put into it yeah definitely um and if that's a quick half effort you're not going to get any like it doesn't need to be that long does it you could just sit down just for an hour and really go through it it doesn't need to be a hugely lengthy process I guess but so how how do you find managing a a creative team obviously you kind of got into um G got into it to do the work yeah you've now got a team to manage sounds like some are remote some you work with kind of face to face is that a part of the job you enjoy yeah definitely I think I've always been really lucky every I've had you know obviously over the last how long it's been 20 years or slightly less employing people um I've always had really great employees so you know it's and I think part of that I guess slightly not directly answering your question but part of that is of I'd say 90% of our people we I employ come from interns they they start as an intern and then generally stay for like I don't know well one of my designers been with me for 10 years and he starts he's a senior designer now and he starts as M 10 so some of some ways it's like you really get to know someone and check that're the right you know see if they're the right fit and you can kind of work well together and then they sort of yeah stay for for a long time so actually I guess I I enjoy the process of kind of you know bit of a family like a work family I guess without planning to kind of corny so yeah I really enjoy the process of managing team I think partly cuz they're A really lovely bunch and we all get on really well um and I think we all know our roles quite well um and I think also getting a project manager in was for me the best thing that one of the best things I did because it meant that I could actually really focus on the bit I enjoy which is the creative part and collaborating with the designers and you know not have to worry so much about the scheduling and the kind of chasing clients and the invoicing and all of that side which I just you know it's a fulltime job is is totally a fulltime job and I actually really enjoy yeah collaborating with my team and kind of I guess I'm managing a team yeah I guess it's both things but I think because they're such a nice Bunch it sort of they make it very easy you know I mean so yeah I've been touch with I've been very lucky so someone that you know might be watching hopefully be watching that's thinking about perhaps they're a Freel lancher and they want to kind of scale it up a little bit and you know create their own agency I think those first hires or first hire is one of the biggest steps what advice would you give them I mean I should have done it much sooner so I didn't I think I was was it about three years I was trying to do everything myself and I actually the thought of taking someone on and thinking about you know that salary and how was I going to make enough to pay you know their salary and things I procrastinated for so long and I wish I'd sort of done it sooner because actually it would have meant the whole process was you know I would have enjoyed working more and we probably would have you know immediately if you take someone on the right fit and it starts working you can sort of I guess do more work and it grows organically and you can start you know looking for those bigger jobs and I was just barely sort of you know staying afloat when it was just me because there was just way too much to do but I think so was that first hire for you another designer yes right sort of a junior designer and then how how many designers did you have when it was the right time to bring in that project manager so I think well I kind of I took on a designer and then I think she was with me for a couple years and I actually CU I had my two kids then so I kind of scaled it back for a bit and then after that I think I took on it was sort of I had two designers and then took on project manager um which actually probably could have been one designer and then a project manager as soon as you have you know a couple of designers or you know including myself I guess you know you almost need that you know management side I think um cu the admin just comes thick and fast yeah yeah I think I had well it was myself and two designers and then a project manager which definitely by the time there's three designers you need someone on well from my perspective you definitely need otherwise you'd spend all the time looking up to them checking what they're doing up and there's you know CU immediately when there's three designers you're already doing quite a lot of works there's already quite a lot of proposals there's you know lots of that admin side happening so yeah I think even yeah two or three I think from my my experience so let's just talk about inspiration Charlie where do you go for inspiration for your the work and when you're or if you're stuck what do you do often for me it's is about the collaboration it is like you know if you're a bit stuck we just sort of you know chat about in the studio and kind of you know brain brainstorm so that process I think always helps get through when we're a bit you know we're a bit stuck on a projects I guess in terms of you know I'm I'm I'm always going to Galleries and doing that sort of thing and you know trying to go to talks and even just you know not doing anything design related for a bit and kind of getting out of you know out of London for a bit or whatever just a different perspective I guess um but yeah I guess inspiration is you know I always feel inspired when I go to an exhibition and that a really obvious thing but it is nice to kind of even if it's work that you're not the necessary love that you're saying it kind of does make you think about things a little bit more broadly I guess what sort of exhibitions is it a about kind of industry stuff or like within the design space or just general art just general yeah General art I think it's just nice just to even see different perspectives different something totally unrelated to what you do as well any recommendations I did actually the weekend go to the marina Abramovich the roal academy which was which was brilliant actually I would highly recommend that um and that's probably the most recent thing I've seen but um yeah I think now I do try and get out and see a few things now and just you know and go to the the odd talk when I can but guess it's sort of they're sort of just starting up again aren't they but yeah um yeah it's just not and even you know whether it's people kind of doing the similar thing to you just to you know I guess like this podcast just to chat about other people's processes and their Journeys as well and their experiences is is always good and what about kind of competition and looking over the fence at what your competitors are doing do you feel that you've got you know some you know other agencies or individuals that you compare yourself to or you kind of look just see what they're up to or you might come up against the same people in in pictures or are you just you know focused on you yeah obviously we do kind of keep a bit of an eye out or you know often we do come up against the same agencies for um pictures um so yeah you often you can't help have a bit of lurk and sort of they've done some great work and you know wish we' done that you know whatever so um yeah I guess we're aware of or I'm aware of you know other Studios who are kind of in our space as well um but I don't know you kind of I probably do stay pretty focused on what we're doing and just make sure that we're doing good work and you know and often when we writing proposal and things we probably yeah lots we don't get and it's always trying to understand why is it price is it you know is there a better way of kind of trying to win work and all that sort of thing so I think we go through phases and often you don't know you you don't know why you don't win some projects and then you know recently we've won loads and you're like what's what's what's happening things just picking up generally I think they probably are um yeah you just you just don't know do you so so on on that kind of proposal process it sounds like it's obviously changed a lot from the proposals you were putting out 20 years ago yeah yeah what in your mind now makes a really great proposal I think we try and be very detailed actually so that a client knows exactly what is expected in each stage and kind of you know almost sort of sometimes we almost do what is not what they're not getting in that stage so if it's like I don't know mood boards or it's I don't know tone of voice work or kind of positioning you know there's we're very clear that there's no creative work in that stage so just I think clients just like to know and from our experience they really just like to know where they're at and sort of almost exactly what is happening in each stage so our Pro our proposals are quite detailed um just to make it really clear cuz I think when everyone knows where they stand and you know we do sort of you know scheduling and sort of a Time plan and you know break down the cost very specifically so and this I guess way of writing proposals has sort of evolved over the last few years just by you know feedback from clients or kind of learnings of you know if you get to a particular stage in a project and they're a bit unclear of you know if we're like well we've had quite a few rounds of men's now and you know and they're like but we didn't discuss that you know like I think it's just over the years have just got a bit better at you know knowing exactly how to well there's still ways to improve I think but you know ways that I guess clients sort of I don't know from feedback and just how to structure proposals the best way I think is there kind of one one thing that you do that you feel might kind of pit the competition if you're against a competitor in a in a kind of pitch stage good question we I we don't do free like three pictures we've done a couple right but actually it's never you're always paid to pitch are you yeah well a couple times we haven't um and I think my M well I know you know as a small business you kind of I recently we did one I get sort of slightly against my best judgment I was like was project was so nice it was it was a dream project and so really wanted to get it um and they wanted you know like a sort of creative work up front as part of the you know you're always like I never think it's a great way to start a relationship with a client just cuz I think they don't value the work if you do it for free at the beginning and you know we sent in you know we really pulled out all the stops and did this kind of presentation and then they didn't you know even acknowledge the you know you just kind of think that's sort of why we don't we don't do it you know and then you don't know you might be up they might be asking 20 agencies to do the same thing I think being very clear in our proposals I think it's been it's really helps I think clients appreciate that guess it shows a a confidence and a maturity that you know your work you value your creativity yeah um and you know you know the structure that the project needs and the client needs yeah and I mean I don't know whether you you probably come ac across the same thing if you haven't done because we work in quite a few sectors we might be approached about a project where we haven't got much experience in that sector so that I think often makes clients a bit nervous even though the process is often the same it's not we haven't specifically got work in that sector so you know sometimes that can be an advantage cuz they're actually looking for you know fresh eyes and then sometimes it just you know they makes them a bit nervous because they they haven't they're not seeing exactly the same thing in your portfolio so um the few times that whether we've ended up getting the job they've actually then I think been really kind of pleased that they've gone with an agency who can bring a fresh take on it so how have you got around that in the past where someone may want to work with you but they're not your portfolio is not exactly what they're looking for in terms of you don't work with the exact same sector or whatever before how do you kind of reassure the client that you can still do it because it's it's a problem that we've had a couple of times as well you do your homework a bit I guess before any of the you know the initial meetings so that you feel like even though you don't have in your portfolio doesn't show that particular kind of work in that sector at least you can kind of talk about it a bit more confidently and often I think it is we do play on that actually it is good if they're looking for something a bit different then it actually is good to go to someone who can come at it you know as I said with kind of fresh pair of eyes and I mean you know sometimes at work sometimes they do go back to who they've used before or so I I don't know I don't think we have a set way of getting around that I think we just you know I think it's lot about the chemistry in the meeting as well isn't it if you kind of connect in that first meeting and they kind of like what they hear and the way you work then that can sometimes win over the fact that you maybe haven't got exactly that thing in your portfolio so I don't know what the magic answer really is but sometimes we get those project sometimes we don't so and often you never really know why like I said is it price is it kind of they've seen a particular project often it's recommendation we get recommended a lot so then I think that goes a really long way when someone recommends you and even if we're being recommended for people like if if you trust that person who's recommended someone else you that goes a long way as well so just going back to the you know being paid to pitch or not when so if someone approaches you they want to potentially you know work with you or go through that process and they ask for a proposal is that when you say we only do paid proposals I mean to be honest I would say 90% of the time we don't get asked for Creative work up front it is it's not actually for us I don't know what it's like with you guys but for us it it's quite rare that we are asked to do that and is that an industrywide thing do you think um not necessarily I think depending on the scale of the jobs I think maybe the type of work I mean and actually the other thing is a lot of our work is repeat work so we've obviously already got a relationship with the client I mean it's quite rare and actually like I said a couple of times I've I've done it and then you know I've always slightly regretted it afterwards because I mean obviously if you get the work then you don't but I just kind of think it is sort of devalues the process if you're just doing it for free a bit it's it's not even about doing it for free necessarily it's about establishing a good working relationship I think with the client yeah we will get prev saying and we might come up with some you know top level Concepts perhaps two or three for a to answer a brief in different ways and there is a lot of you know of the Studio's time the team's time lot of creative goes into it and when you don't win it it's obviously a real shame and you know you feel a bit deflated I wonder perhaps if we took a leaf out of your book and we were a bit firmer with that and Le did less of that creative up front knowing that it needs to be valued I Think It's Tricky isn't it cuz in some sectors like is that's the norm really so unless you do it then you're not to show the client this is what you'll be buying and they okay great we'll have a video like that please yeah probably my viewpoint changes on it a bit depending on how busy we're if we're really busy then I would just say no you know just like we don't need that project and what you know we've got these pay clients that we should be giving our attention to when you're quiet you you know slightly more openminded to it I guess but I think I'm quite lucky a lot of the work we get we're not actually asked to do it anyway um um but yeah I think like if if if it's kind of common in your world then you it's hard to say no isn't it it's hard because otherwise you don't want to rule yourself out yeah but on a couple of occasions we've agreed like a a nominal fee really even just to do some initial thinking and sometimes that's a way around it so they're not kind of outlaying a huge amount or not committing to the full process you're doing some initial work just to sometimes we've done that and that sort of worked okay but not totally against it but I just think sometimes it doesn't actually make for the best long-term working relationship or I say if they've asked 20 companies to do it then your chances of getting the job are so slim anyway so yeah they might just be shopping around for ideas and they probably might do in house anyway yeah yeah exactly exactly and that's the other thing you're like well they might use these ideas anyway yeah yeah what can you do you know so the a the studio has been running 20 years you must have had some highs and some lows some ups and some Downs how how have you kind of found that that roller coaster what have what have some of the biggest challenges been generally or maybe I've forgotten them yeah generally it's been pretty actually a pretty smooth ride really I mean sometimes It's Tricky situations with clients I mean to be honest generally we haven't had a project that's totally bombed where you've just they've hated the work and then you know you're a bit sort of in that tricky position generally we've always worked through it but we have had some quite challenging clients where they're hard to work with and they make the atmosphere in the studio is a bit you know people don't really necess want to work on the project because the client's quite tricky but generally we've been really lucky we've only had a couple of those so in those scenarios as the as the leader yeah how do you get the team in the right head space or get the morale right that you know you can tackle those those challenges I think it's probably making sure that we do have some other projects going on in the studio that everyone's really enjoying so you're kind of even though that we've got this one and we need to finish it or maybe it's sort of slightly paying the bills you know like cuz you do need you know you kind of just making sure that we've got some other nice things going on or maybe shielding the team a bit from interactions with the client if they're a tricky client and then just myself do you might might step in yeah or I'll do just more of the meetings with kind of my project manager and maybe Shield the designers a bit from you know if a really tricky client or it's just making sure that everyone's got I think generally everyone always has something really nice to work on even if there's some other things that okay you aren't so enjoyable but actually to be fair most of our projects are actually quite fun to work on it's only the old one that's is difficult but um I think I guess you know Co was obviously like for all of us was a challenging time or actually for us it was after we were really busy during Co and then after that we that's when we had a bit more challenging time so um I guess it's just trying to find ways to keep morale off a bit and you know CU everyone was a bit nervous during that time but we seem to have generally sort of been okay really I think we've just just seemlessly making good decisions and doing the right thing you know I don't I don't know about that especially but I think I've just got a really good team and we I think I've always been surrounded by people's opinion I trust and you know who kind of work hard and loyal and we've you know it's sort of it's given take isn't it I think I try and be good boss and I don't know we we just haded seems to work really and I think I've been very lucky you know must been more than luck though surely I don't know there something in there very modest so in terms of kind of creating that team atmosphere it sounds like you've established something that's really nice and people enjoy working with you yeah is that a proactive you I'm sure you're not going in every day being like how can I make sure the atmosphere is right but is that do you believe it just comes from you as the the founder the leader the creative director or is it something that you've had to work at I know we've always had quite a you know though so I guess our biggest we were about there was about nine of us um but now we're down to of five um I think it's always just the personalities and the team and you know we always there's always a lot of kind of banter and chat and you know we even though two of our team are mostly remote As I said you know we do sort of check in a lot during the day so there's always a good kind of I guess camaraderie and kind of you know atmosphere so even though it's not not in the same room um we do try and do you know go talks and sort of you know do stuff together a bit and you know I guess just keep it light-hearted a bit really um and I guess as a boss I always try and be quite approachable like if you know if 's sort of people have any issues or I don't know things that they're not happy about I would sort of try and be very open so that people can kind of just come and talk to me if there's a problem we can kind of sort it out before it becomes an issue sound a nice place to work well hopefully I think that you know I'm obviously speaking on behalf of my team but I think everyone enjoys enjoys it and yeah we seem to try of I guess if there's any issues we trying to sort them out early on and yeah I think everyone seems reason to be happy but I hope anyway yeah yeah who knows what's going on behind and and do you think that that is reflected in the work having a good kind of relaxed friendly collaborative atmosphere does that make the work more creative and and better I think so I guess you know probably as creatives we all probably produce better work when we're kind of enjoying you know enjoying the process and the environment we're working in yeah I think it does yeah it feeds through to work I think definitely doing something right Al so in terms of the kind of the more looking to the future of the studio do you feel you've got it in a nice space sounds like you have what are the the kind of longer term plans if I'm totally honest I don't really make long-term plans I just kind of go you know I've been going with it for this long and it seems to have been working okay and I kind of so maybe that was sort of co co as well a little bit CU you has that always been the case Charlie when you you know you set out and it was sort of oh I'm a freelancer but we call it yeah set up as a company I mean that's my personality it's just kind of gone from there was there ever a moment and you thought we're going to aim for a particular size of Revenue or to be honest that's just not really the way I roll actually I just sort of intend to kind of go with the flow a little bit and I don't really plan ahead I sort of you know I plan ahead as much as like have we got enough work for the next few months and you know is everything okay and is you know is everyone team okay are we all good you know kind of but I don't really think oh this is where I want to be in a few years time I think I just I just don't think like that really I kind of you know go with go with things as as they are and just see see what happens really and maybe that's not seems to working I I guess I do think our industry is is changing massively at the moment and you know you do kind of wonder where it's going to be in the next 10 years what are the changes well I guess things like you know I think it's you know when we're costing on jobs you know there's a lot of the stuff you can get you know you can get logos done online or like AI coming in all these things that I guess lots of people can have all the software and you know you don't necessarily need to have kind of gone to art school and done it feels like it's everyone can kind of be a designer a little bit now so in some ways it it's harder to justify I wouldn't even say oh fees are that high but I still think it's harder to justify you know the amount of time and you know we put a lot of effort in and really craft the work we do and obviously that does come at a a cost and like I said I don't think it's you know compared to other Studios out there I don't think we're necessarily that expensive but I think it's harder to kind of justify those fees sometimes because of the way our industry is changing so I don't know where it's going to be in 10 years time that's a bit daunting you know an AI and everything coming in and all that sort of stuff just like you know how how do you feel about AI because it's as you say you can go on online and type in a few prompts and get a you know spits out a logo yeah is AI something you're using as a studio or sometimes for if we're trying to kind of scamp something up and just look at what an illustration could look like as bit of a place holder or you we might just we've dabbled a little bit but and I guess it feels like I'm not an expert on it but I guess it feels like at the moment it's sort of you can't necess really use it for commercial purposes so it's fine for kind of just doing things internally but obviously that landscape is totally changing so I don't really know what the impact of that is going to be and on all of us really I guess in the kind of yeah creative field like how the plan just roll with it as you say or you going to I'm afraid so yeah yeah that's just you know and I don't know like I do really love love what I do and would happily keep doing this for as long as I can so you know as long as there's clients out there wanting to work and maybe next few years it will sort of change a bit but yeah I I don't really plan ahead I know that's maybe not the best you know business way of looking at things but it seems to work for me so so just in terms of the the business side of things do you have help with that you you kind of looking at bottom lines and Marin and making sure there's you know the bills are being paid I guess we do kind of look ahead to we look at it and kind of do a bit of planning see where we're at how's the next quarter looking so my project manager Camp manager and I we sort of you know she's sort of brilliant at all that stuff so we do really sit down and look at you know maybe reflect back on what last year looked like and how things are looking for this quarter the next quarter um and really for me it's just knowing the next few months we you know we can pay all the bills pay everyone s salaries you know we have a little bit of a buffer I guess so no we'll be okay if we weren't if we didn't have any work for 6 months we'd be okay you know says I guess there's a bit of security in that but um like I said I don't plan massively far ahead because I just think there's things just change all the time how do you and I'm not looking to grow the agency especially I kind of really enjoy actually the times we're at now um so yeah I think it's just I don't yet look that far ahead or um but from planning point of view just sort of make sure that things are looking okay in this quarter next quarter and that's about as much planning as I do probably yeah well it sounds like it's it's definitely working and means that you can concentrate on the work yeah and the clients and doing brilliant work yeah definitely final thoughts Charlie if if someone's you know listening to this they're a similar place to where you were a few years ago what what would you say to them as I've probably touched on loads I think it's really about building a network not even in your immediate team but kind of a network of people that you enjoy working with that you kind of trust and you you know like the quality of their works I think it's all about the people that I work with it's been just such a huge part um I think it's I got we got to stage where we were well quite big we were sort of nine people and I found that hard I mean everyone's different but for me I ended up having to take on projects I didn't necessarily want to do just because there was a huge salary bill to pay so I kind of I think we grew a bit too quickly um I say quickly we in in that in the space of time we I took on probably too many people didn't really have quite enough work so I think it was it's just kind of knowing where you're at I guess and just sort of not being too I what it is but not being too reactive I guess um I think just trying to do work you enjoy like if I mean sometimes it's not always an option you just need to take on the projects but generally I've always really enjoyed the projects and the clients we've worked with so I sort of yeah if you can if you can do that I think it's sort of you know keep then you kind of keep enjoying the process and enjoying the work um but yeah I think trying to build a team around you who you trust I think and work well with that's not a bit Willy I think but it's great there's definitely a lot a lot in there you know and I think it's was really interesting what you said earlier that you wish you'd perhaps made that first hire sooner because it is a when you are you know starting a business or starting to run your own business it's very that first hire is a huge it's a big milestone but you know when you get it right I don't think you ever look back yeah yeah I think yeah that was probably the biggest mistake I made early on was just not doing that sooner cuz I actually didn't I was not enjoying it because it was so stressful and you know if you're just if you're the only creative you're doing the same you think of things and you have your own aesthetic so you end up doing you you're not really challenging the kind of creative output sort of it's your own vision isn't it so it was really nice to get other people in so I think I would have done that sooner actually and then once I once I took on the first employee and it was you know then was like oh my God this is amazing why don't I do this sooner and and actually then the sort of project management sort of role was that definitely was the one of the best things I did actually and then people are doing the things that they're good at so of you're playing people's strengths really um so yeah I think guess finding the right people bring the right people in and sometimes actually outs like we don't necessar have all the skills internally in our team so you know working with people external to our studio um if there's something on a job that you know you kind of know we can sort of do but actually isn't our skill set like working with external people knowing when to bring other yes exactly so if you weren't creative director of Charlie Smith design what would you be doing if you had a a different career where where would you be I'm me if I always wanted to be like a set designer or a theater designer that would have been my other path so I don't where I'd be now if I was doing that yeah in terms of cre other creative disciplines that might probably would have been where I would have gone right um oh yeah or done something totally different I yeah and if it was outside of the creative Industries I don't know I I love like being in the mountains doing something outdoors I don't know what that would be I don't know what career that would be but yeah something I don't know more outoors yeah maybe who knows yeah well I think that's all we've got time for Charlie thank you so much for coming in oh well thanks for having me that was great thank you chat thanks very much thank you