Creative Minds Podcast - Episode 2 "There's no world where AI takes over creative ideas"

but some people 7 out of 10 creative is another person's 10 out of 10 crazy right from one out of ten creative if someone else's ten yeah and learning where you've got to pitch yourself and um my bot like the boss I had before my current one we always used to talk about which version of me do you want you want Greg Gregor or Gregory and Gregory with rolled out for when we think it was suits and tithe and when it needed to be a bit more sincere Greg or somewhere in between and Greg when we want to have a laugh with it [Music] Greg welcome to the podcast cool thank you for having me it is all about Creative Minds The the reason we came up with the podcast is it's quite a selfish excuse I wanted to pick other creatives brains about their process so I could kind of just learn and improve the creative process at Bear Jam see if I can pick up any techniques it was originally oh just you know just have a chat with a few people I know that then turned into oh why don't we record it then that turned into why don't we film it here we are in a studio doing a you know all all bells and whistles podcast oh nice it feels suitably bougie and I'm very happy to be honest got it not to be the first one obviously but I'll take being second to be asked but I just noticed it says episode one on our little box set of episode two otherwise we could have we could have snuck you in to be the pilot never mind also we're we're non-compete aren't we so if I do tell you anything unique it's not going to come back and yeah bite me yeah what we sometimes collaborate nice um but anyway we're in the studio Shane we're not in the pub which is perhaps where it would have been if it was just the two of us but to be fair it's at least it is cooler in here which is a touch true really well I am for a hairy gentleman this is vital continue yeah um so to kick us off Greg just tell me a little bit about your where you are in your career and the path to get there because I know it wasn't necessarily a traditional creative's route no no it's actually more of a traditional creative to PR route which we're seeing like less of now actually but so I'm creative director at Mischief which is the consumer armor of MHP Group which is part of next 15 so we're a big old conf industry uh common with industry beam off giant there's loads of people we range from everything from corporate comms to public affairs to Consumer and like yeah such with the pandemic also lots of health too so that's where I'm at I'm at now before then I was at an agency called Ready 10 which was again a traditional PR um agency but with a lean towards sort of SEO but I think as they've grown they've sort of grown out of the SEO a bit a little bit more and that was my civil first proper only creative route before then I was at the Synergy which is a sports marketing company um who again like they were a creative Sports marketing company but I didn't really have I was an account director there and then I got a creative stuck in the front of it because they recognized that um and then before that it was six years at Frank which is I think where I realized that I loved the creative side of it because they were they they would they poignantly until very recently refused to have a creative director because they were the only opinion that this whole agency is creative and therefore not everyone they thought had an equal creative route and eventually a persuaded him to not all creative they're equal and that there should be a creative of the gummy food that's when we came through and then I started my career um at Blue Rubicon who are now tenio which with a corporate PR Company in it okay quite a change yeah that was a weird change and a lot of people looking back on it I don't think I should have been 21 years old working in corporate Pi with a I'm barely grown up enough now at 35 but at 21 I was definitely not grown up enough but yeah I can't imagine the 21 year old Greg yeah it was uh it's like this only marginally less hairy but everything else is basically thought of the same but no it was great that's why I cut my teeth though you learn a lot about storytelling in corporate PR and how comms especially at the very highest level can really influence an entire business's performance all the way through to like Frank and Mischief with a lot more consumer based and so the sort of the experience I've got from a creative side of things is seeing how creative Works in loads of different um loads of different settings and I think that's the if I was to Pat myself on the back for anything if that I can be serious I could be silly I could be funny I think that's reflective of the background that I've had right because you've seen it from a number of different sides yeah and it's um it's about finding out what what some people's seven out of 10 creative is another person's 10 out of 10 creative right someone's one out of ten creative if someone over ten yeah and learning where you've got to pitch yourself and um my the boss I had before my current one we always used to talk about which version of me do you want you want Greg Gregor or Gregory and Gregory with rolled out for when we think it was suits and ties and when it needed to be a bit more sincere Greg or somewhere in between and Greg's when we want to have a laugh with it and I thought a fan that if Mischief is Greg MHP is much more Gregory and I level out at Gregor but yeah probably my least favorite of the name variants you can have who have we got today uh I think you're gonna have predominantly Greg but if you ask me like a serious one I'll give you a smidge of Gregor okay and Gregory is very rarely seen on a Friday right okay unless yeah yeah Gregory's very Monday fair enough so I mean he's often furious at Friday Greg as well right well yeah did you see what Greg did on yeah in fact what Greg didn't do on Friday he tends to be motivated yeah uh so a kind of a long-ish very career um feels like just getting started though when creative director I know Mischief described themselves as a creative PR agency yeah so they obviously put the emphasis on Creative does that and you're you know create at the top of that pyramid does that does that come with pressure yeah it does because I think it should do and if I especially look if you're called a creative PR agency and you'll not create it if you'll get found out pretty quick yeah um so yeah it does it's like but at the same time like I'm quite confident in like I'm confident in my own ability having cut my teeth for however long so you've sort of got to back yourself a little bit so yeah if like with pressure comes but I felt pressure a lot more when I was younger and what I find like managing younger creative really interesting is they're still at that stage where like this really could go wrong and like you see your stuff go wrong so whereas I feel like I've seen a lot go wrong and therefore I'm less worried about stuff so the pressure comes down a notch I find I now have a different thought of pressure which is I really want like the guys and girls that I managed to be really really good and I've sort of like you get managed alongside that rather than the idea if you come up because I think by the time you reach the level of creative director you should have probably had a few good ideas in your time and then the reason you're a creative director not a creative if you're meant to be fostering in an environment and a and people to get up to a standard that you want that's reflective of an agency that calls itself a creative agency and so there yeah there's pressure but I don't feel it on my shoulder so much ever you must come up with ideas yeah okay because you because you're putting that on the on the junior well yeah it's just like here have my pressure like it's um but no that's how I learn and I go and I think I get the feedback a lot about me is to let let it go a little bit more and I was and it's bizarre because I always felt I was given really loose I've given what it was afraid I've given I was given free raid especially at Frank they let you very young make your own mistakes and go through and I would I remember occasionally feeling a bit exposed by that but actually long term I really benefited from that in terms of where you cut your teeth Fame at somewhere like ready 10 which if I had a very thought of when I was there had a real thought startup mentality and that meant with the type of clients you had you had a lot more freedom to express yourself and come through and when I was there we won um we won McDonald's which was like an amazing moment agency but I remember thinking like we'd pitched if in a very not mcdonald'sy way it was felt like it was very true to us and so it's it's different that you get different sort of pressures as you go through like I don't yeah I don't lie a lie awake thinking about my job in that respect I just I just really like it that was going to be my next question you know do you do you still like it do you do you love it like does it so I like course like I wouldn't be I think like look I said what am I I'm 30 I'm 35 now I still have I still am rarely outenergied in a room like I I think that's a responsibility you sort of have to bring the energy in come through that and that can be like a high energy or it could be a calming energy and you go through it and I without getting too deep on it like I had like a really nasty Health Care last year and I remember coming out of that and being like or why do I still care about this Robert Diaz pitch when I nearly died and it's like and it's like actually that's really good that I still care about this Robert Dyer's picture if I must really like my job and that's great and I think I vibe off other people liking it you know I mean it's like I've just before we got in this room I've just seen that our cardo team have got a load of coverage on The Daily Mail and like there is a team they are bouncing off each other and I vibe off that as much as I do like one thing I speak to one of my peers about a lot is sometimes you get promoted beyond the thing you're best at and so my thing has always been like I love coming up with ideas and actually the higher you go up the left idea that you come up with yeah and the more fostering of other people you you you do and like and I just I like setting a standard for it like it's constantly evolving like obviously we're talking a lot at the moment about the value of AI and creativity and what that means and I I just there isn't a world where you can convince me that AI is going to take over human ideas because one I think you can do a Providence job on it anyway in the fader our ideas are handcrafted or made for you basically say these are organic ideas yeah like made from genuine humans and I think you'll get it there but if I you can't convince me AI has no lift experience and so it can replicate and replicate and replicate but all you're ever going to get is in authentivity and so I don't feel that fear or for me because it's such a human industry we work in and so so I just want to pick up so on ideas where can you talk me through where you get your ideas what's your process so it varies so I like I'm processing light because I think you you should be like I've seen Amazing Ideas come from really well-structured brainstorms I've seen some of the best ideas come from someone within a bath or on the toilet and the camera oh my god I've got this going on there yeah oh my God how did you come up with it right so I'm staring at the bathroom floor I'm like yeah of course you were right so you go so there is a process it's like it's but I think it's more important to know what a good idea is and how that makes you feel okay let's start out so what NPR let's keep it on yeah what like what is a good PR idea so it is purest sense a good idea is something to make you feel something and like I I like talking about like we talk about like emotional levels like hey we used to talk about personal emotional and surprising which was something but emotional for such a strong word but like if you know when you've seen it and if it's like it either makes you think about something a bit differently it excites you it makes you laugh makes you cry makes you about it just say you know a good idea if it makes it it's absolute chorus that's a good idea it could be a solution to something like we're not always making solutions for stuff sometimes you'll live there just to make someone laugh and therefore I think you know it's a good idea if it makes you feel something and that can be differently even if it makes you feel angry I think it might be a good idea meant to make you feel angry yeah it wasn't meant to make you laugh and now you're Fury if like that would be a disaster but like that fit in its pure sense I think it you know you've got something good when it makes you feel something and what's the best way to get to that then if you're not sat on the blog looking at them no so I think so I think you need to have a I think it's more important to have a sign of protest in an ideation process if you know okay so it's a case of right in PR as well we have to think about where it's going to go like so it's slightly different to advertising creative where advertising creative or marketing creativity you know your stuff is going to get seen like because you're going to pay for a slot or you're going to pay for a print company you know it's going to get seen if you're in PR like there's a chance you could come up with an idea that doesn't get a theme so you have to think about it from a channel point of view as well if it has to be if it's intended for the front page of the fun if it's intended for a sport pipe with his social first and everything else comes from that so you've got to think you have to think we have one extra sign off point which is is it going to get approved by the earned whoever it is um that holds the door or gatekeeper for your personality exactly yeah so that's the extra bit sign off process that goes to PR it's like yeah this is a lovely idea is it newsworthy is it something that's going to make you stop and write about it and quick content that's really important process-wise like we're we've got a good brainstorming culture I'm a big fan of putting people into pairs I like creative pair if I pick that up from um a guy called Mark Lewis at the school of communication arts in Brixton I just thought of doing it and it was really effective and as someone who's quite extroverted and loud it's like I try and pair people with extroverts and introverts so they speak to each other so you don't have people shouting in the room I also think that's a really good way of if you've got someone who I would call it like quietly creative who needs to think about it they don't get drowned out by someone like me who likes to think out loud and so you pair it off you send them away they come back and they pitch and present to each other and I think right so you might have one brief and then a couple of different pairs working on the same brief and then bring them back together exactly that and I think if you're if you're and then you pitch at your peers and especially important in PR because again like you need to be as good as the junior or the account executive the account manager that's still speaking to the media and that's my biggest creative fear is that I lose touch of what the what's happening in the media world to go in because I mean you might have seen this a little bit but there was a period in like the early 10vs where actually even I don't know if it's more modern let's say from 2010 to 2015 and a little bit beyond that media would say to us like I'll give us video content video content is news just give us really good video content and now you can't just sell in a video like it have to be story like it's just it's it's basically there isn't that video editing job on the mirror of sites as much anymore yeah so you make really good content still but that tends to be more for social not straight thread at all yeah it's definitely evolved from those times I think so yeah something that we see in the kind of the and part of that is like how branded something is yeah is has has has changed as well I think in that period you know it's interesting so you you would appear to be a bit is really important in PR because I've got to be I've come up with this really lofty idea that would have got a shed load of coverage in my time but now I need someone to say to me like Greg like that won't work anymore like if journalists need if journalist needs this so we need to tweet the idea like that yeah so the peer review part of creativity becomes like really important because you've got to convince your peers that it won't end in a being told to bugger off by a journalist which or worse I think there's a big struggle with PR and saying that I always feel sorry for the pr people when you know they've got a great idea great concept great campaign deliver it but then the news agenda shifts there's been a big Story Land and however good the you know the campaign piece was oh no we've had to wipe it it's off the it's off the agenda because we've got to talk about this yeah no we had it like Margaret Thatcher dying once ended uh like a couple of hundred grand campaign for me which it felt very anti-factured out because she's quite pro-business but like really yeah shattered it client with left wing though so maybe she got her but like it was like but no it happens and it's like and I've seen it happen in like the dirtiest of ways when you're just like you've just been really really unlucky like yeah pray for anyone that had a Showbiz story this week and yeah yeah it's like you like it's schofield's now had like two solid weeks of that means two solid weeks of you not talking like coronation another one like that we I'm gonna shamelessly Nick Afraid from a guy called Nick where I thought we referred to it as Mayhem where it may have been absolutely appalling like yeah like that yeah it is good in it yes actually that was mine um it's just like it was Carnage like you had coronation into a home Eurovision into Scofield into every like there was also the point of politics paralysis where you literally couldn't get stuff away there was no other news other than which prime minister has messed up now and that it can it can hit you like more often than not like if you're dealing in consumer goods there's always more room in the paper and otherwise more news than going through it's just like there could be times when it's tight and because the journalist pool is shrinking you will find it more journalist writing about three or four subjects rather than one or two and so a big new story can take out your consumer editor because they've got to do the consumer view on what does this mean for what does this big political thing mean for the consumer rather than what is this lovely fluffy consumer campaign mean about we've just made a giant chocolate Easter Bunny and put it in a village called Bunny and Nottingham and you don't want to cover this anymore because we've got a new problem really good right yeah luckily there was we were perfect for the and finally section okay so yeah it worked nicely so after having been told like everything is all forward doom doom doom and finally there's a giant chocolate bunny and Nottingham and you're like yeah like no so how so when you're you know working on the the creative idea I guess you need to have that as well as knowing like where's it intended for getting the timing right and having that visibility yeah okay eurovision's coming it's not related to that but that's going to be dominating how do we navigate that yeah I guess it's it's just something else to throw in the mix yeah and like you you both you mitigated for it but it's like you also make like some judgment causes like they're like there is Media space for more than one story and so you can mitigate but like say for example if you had a I don't know if you had a press release about something music related and it was launching the week of Eurovision I think you should be advising your client to maybe not launch it that week and yeah let's go straight up because eurovision's like it's a weekend and then if gone yeah so you could delay that and you can go each way if the things you've got to be more careful about are just supposed to work best way of putting it is not putting a time limit on that you don't have to that you don't strictly have to adhere to and I don't think you see we have we seen that a lot with client Behavior but also PR agencies are guilty of it if this must run now this week was actually we see it more and more sell-ins they've got sorry when I say sell it I'm referring to the act of like getting your story to Media it's calling the journalist yeah the hardware doing that doing the hard hack that sort of thing so I don't like calling it a sell-in though because it implies it's a sales exchange but actually if we've done our job right it's they should be buying a hand yeah exactly and there's no money exchanged so if not really fell but that's the phrase and I've noticed that they've got a little less time sensitive and so if a story it used to be like oh if it's you've you've put it out on a Monday and it didn't land on the Tuesday therefore this story is now dead whereas more often than not now either just because again it's a timing thing it's journalists will hold a story find a new hook for it and so give me a really lovely example we did an idea around um we did an idea for Ricardo which we've we basically got um they're really big they've got a fantastic record on sustainability and food waste and we did this whole idea about using the drugs of your food and turning it into gourmet meals for birds and for Birds yeah okay so it's really cute yeah obviously like you've got little tiny plates with like we'd been food artered to make and we knew what's the obsession with PR with either making tiny things or massive things you play to your audience and the journalist love big to small yeah people go mad for it like but these were cute actually some of them were quite big but like yeah you got the GIF okay we did it with the rfpvb rspb hang on no I've given them an extra B Just the RFP how many birds were there now just be just beef and um and we timed it with the gray uh bird cat which is an rfpb initiative and you counting but and we got loads of coverage in line with that and then I but then three weeks later we were still getting coverage for it because we had it in our head I'll be so great to partner with the rfpb and Link this up with the great bird watch media were like yeah bird watch with a nice touch but it's also it's just spring in it like and you're just like I don't know it is just spring and so it kept on having that longevity so you can you can force yourself into a corner a little bit of a time where you sometimes don't have to yeah um yeah and you mitigate against it but yeah as a general rule you try to avoid like you know when something mass and mainstream is happening and you try to give out a you try and give out a bit of a bit of a wide breath but other than that you should be you should be you should be confident that you're timing it right not worried about what everyone else is doing so Greg what what would you say makes you a good creative every day I don't know I don't know um I think there's a couple of things there's a couple of things that I think background wise are quite nice like I think I've I've had a very like mixed upbringing where I've been both I've spent like like my I've had times where I've been like in like really nice settings where like my I lived with my nan for a bit and they lived in a big house in the countryside and I had a very idyllic rural upbringing and then my mum's always lived in the center of London and so and that was different I remember like I've I've had everything from like the I've basically if you think about it in terms of baked beans I've had everything from Heinz homegrown to special ones to the Sainsbury's value ones which at the time were like economy white stick with the blue ribbon around the thigh and it just means that I've seen quite a lot of different things yeah and like from being like it and it gives you quite a unique take on at least like The Human Experience I think I think I think I think I'm quite a good empath and I can relate to people quite well and if I don't I then take a lot of pride in making sure that I'm well read and like so that's something I think I'm really good after I think I've got better at this if I've got older it's also recognizing that there are people around you who are better than you other things and shamelessly borrowing and stealing from them when you can and going in but like I mean that we've worked together enough like you should be able to tell me that as well well I did knowing knowing I was going to ask that I did I and I was going to try and weave it into the introduction um but then I thought I'll I'll ask you but yeah I mean I I my response to why is Greg good is I think you've got no ego which I think is really important I really like I guess that comes in when you say you don't mind collaborating getting ideas from other people I think you call it how it is um again which is great and and there is that side of you that I've seen which it goes back to the baked beans I think you are kind of a bit of a a man of the people in a way I think you're you're you're not in a kind of you know London bubble you kind of seem to be a bit more worldly which I think it must be quite a strength for trying to you know sell in stories that are going to be reading yeah I think well firstly thank you I'm now blushing um which is not ideal with this t-shirt but and if you're just listening to it the t-shirt's pink um but yeah no I think I think it is I I I'm I'm glad you said that because I hate other I hate the creative stereotype like I'm not with a studio in hoxton um I'm not normally a skinny jean latte where uh yeah I think like creative it's like I think we've spoken about this with Cam I find it like I don't need to be patted on the back by other creative I would like yinan to see it and be like that was really clever and like they're the campaigns to me that matter and like I'd rather be told by the best thing that's ever happened to me career-wise it's not so much like these big award wins and stuff like that it's when one of your mates puts it in a WhatsApp group who knows nothing about PR and be like oh my God do you see this thing that just eat they do so this is really funny I'm like haha that was me and then they immediately hate it on printful tonight so it was um so yeah and I thought I'm I'm grateful you said that because I think that's the it's the thing that I yeah I do write about myself I very proudly take and like you also like if I could allow me to be briefly woke if I also have a responsibility as a white bloke who is like by sort of accidental definition middle class it's like to make sure you're really well read and so you do understand like you're never going to you're never going to match lived experience but you can do your very best to Source from as many different sources of humanly possible to help inform your idea and I think the the campaign I got the most that I think is the single most awarded I've ever done with with their campaign for which was to help the um the lgbtqia plus community and the reason I'm so proud of that is because of the amount of work that went into can we please make sure we're not getting this wrong like and yeah and it wasn't just a case of asking right after after two gay guys in the office it was a case of really making sure you teach it because it's like it's like you see it from like you've got Douglas Murray who is an openly gay man who is slightly slightly right of most horrible dictative and he thinks a certain way to what I would represented like to someone like Joe life who is also like the complete that is I think you can fall into a massive trap of grouping people of the fame and even within within sub-generative and subsections and other demographics there's so many variants that you've got to really work hard and be well read to to appreciate them all and then even then you might not get it right and but you or the best you can do with try yeah and if you're saying you know the best campaigns and ideas are the ones that spark emotion you need to know the audience don't you and you need to understand yeah how they think and what is going to spark that motion and it's and you can learn that's the other thing that so well I occasionally get a bit frustrated when it's it feels like it's the answer to diversity isn't always just like throw more diverse people at it it's like you can learn yourself and you need to take those experiences on but I don't like people to say like oh the solution to diversity is to get more diversity at every possible thing in fact that should be that's one part of the solution the other part of the solution is you train yourself you read you make sure that you you you do your own research so when you are bringing in more diversity you're not bringing it in for tokenistic purpose if you bring it in because you really like a valuing the work that's gone into it and you're valuing their experiences and you're bringing it in and I don't think that necessarily I think that can be a really powerful way of doing really great work is to oh yeah just crowd Source it like I don't know why you wouldn't and I think that's the difference between being a creative and a creative director if you thought from stuff like I say like my my creative black weak spot is is Tech related stuff like it I've got one lad who who works as who like he's the one that's worked out how to use AI really well and he's like what I've been going through and I just got a little bit of a it just doesn't interest me much like I've never been like personally I've never been like a Tech head if like when if like I've just about got a pair of airpods now and that's only because like everyone had them and I would have felt like a bit of a lemming not having that yeah he's doing wires yeah they work so I've got a bit of a blind spot to Tech but that doesn't mean that we don't do Tech idea if it yeah it means you've got to work especially harder you know that you can bring it in yeah yeah so I guess when when just going back when you would talk about your creative process and say not necessarily process driven sounds like there is a part that is a bit of an immersion so yes is that the right word yeah yeah and you know whether it's you know doing something aimed at a particular Community or section or you know attack ads yeah I guess there is a part of it that you just need to what what do you do just you said reading a lot do you have to kind of take yourself away bury yourself in yeah I think I've all thought yeah so you do a lot about yourself and you should do like I'm lucky I work with and have worked with like really good strategists as well so I currently work with a guy called Dan Diggs Osborne who is brilliant and he's a real like obsessive on research and storytelling coming out before that um you would have met her I'm sure but like Lucy heart who is just she's much more thought she I would say she's more of a humanist strategist that she really she knows The Human Experience and she brings it in and then would start would almost use stats to back it up afterwards but you thought get this out of the sort of coming through and so yeah I think immersion is quite a good way of putting it because you especially if it's not in your sweet spot you have to really really try really hard to get into it and I don't mind like if the situation cools for it I don't mind doing Focus grouping it like but the reason I say I don't have a process is because like I don't think you can apply a process to every brief you get in where you can apply a number of different techniques and tactics to a different brief and I think that's probably the healthiest way of doing it where you wouldn't do a focus group for a press office idea you would do a focus group for maybe a big campaign idea that you don't know anything about like I probably wouldn't focus group something on football where when you say focus group is that with members of the public yeah being members of the Republican like so one thing we've recently positioned ourselves as Mischief is a passion powered agency and so that basically means rather than looking at demographics and saying like I feel like the best line I've used that right you are wearing a green shirt today you are wearing a green shirt today not because you are age 24 to 40 and you are white male you're wearing it because I like that shirt and that color has worked with me you don't buy something because of your yeah yeah your age range and whatever if you buy something because you're like I like that and so we tap more into passions so the way we start doing so we set up something called The In Crowd which is pockets of people that are passionate fan for something and so for example we've had a gaming brief come in we've now got on this in we've got a gaming In Crowd section which ranges from like people that are your mum who likes playing Candy Crush and flicking like on the tube home to hardened seasoned Gamers who you can Buffet to them like look this is the game this is what's going on what do you mean with what do you think and you get so they are experts in their field but not traditional PR experts they are with like with with an agenda they aren't normal people and that is a really helpful way to do it but you wouldn't apply that to everything you wouldn't have to do it and and sometimes you can back yourself on your own knowledge if I I can smell when someone has done a football campaign and a creative it's not a football fan like I can get it like within a second like I'll know and it'll be like just a little there'll be there'll be something right the word footy is a massive giveaway if anyone if anyone says footy ah right you don't know what football live yeah like I just assume that you're wronging like it's just like you'll get onto it like my case in point best example is Puma did I remember Puma doing a flash mob for berythia Dortmund after they'd Loft to Bayern Munich in the final here at the figure 2013 and it's my favorite piece of disastrous content of all time because you can tell what's happened it's like we were going to do the flash mob at fa1 and they didn't should we do the flash mob anyway it's just that yeah add it oh it's like poetry how bad this content is because like Jurgen klopp's the manager of Dortmund at the time right there's these guys they're dancing and Stansted Airport these players are devastated they've just lost by the biggest game of it like that you can thought all their facial expression is okay a puma released it as if it was good and you've left Airline looking at it they're like oh my God that stinks of shoreditch and it was just like oh no oh no oh no and it's like it released it and all the comments in YouTube is still the same always have been of just like why have you done this like the player the visibly pissed off like it's absolutely just wonder what that like the amount of people that would have had to have seen it and signed it off and not one football person did yeah and you could tell and you can tell that it's like it's like I'm speaking to her speaking to a colleague who's black the other day who just had like one black person would have caught that and it's about um sorry no I've got that story completely wrong it's like it was about the um it was about KSI and um uh he used a p word on um he used to p word in one of his videos and you were like and they laughed about it and they got through and it was that piece of content were like someone would have caught that if someone should should have caught that and it was a power Dynamic let's go through it and that's why crowdsourcing even at a sign off point of view I think is really really important to just make sure you don't clang it yeah how talking of clangers how do you deal with feedback that's you know let's say you've come up with an idea you've fussed it you've worked it up send it off to the client or someone else in the agency and it's just negative feedback how do you take that uh you blame your production partner um you say cut that James at Bear Jam what a nightmare if I did no he's like being like past the back yeah it's like yeah you blame yeah yeah you throw Junior's under the bath as soon as you can no it it's part of the job in it it's like you just I thought if you can't sell an idea it's a bad idea uh or it's a good idea for someone else but it's definitely not a good idea for the client who just deferred that they hate it like now again if you speak to other creatives they might tell you about this one time where they really fought for it and the client wasn't sure but they pushed it through that happens like once a year like it like you'll know it if you try and push back on a client they're like yeah I just don't really like the idea though and in fact you want everyone's got to be on board and like I said if somebody's like who's the main selling point is like energy if someone's like not got the same enthusiasm for an idea I go off it and it's like and I don't think that's a bad thing I think you need your client to be excited if you are or at least in the same ballpark of excitement so it's almost like boy would you go all right then cool we'll have another crack but yeah it's really important to know why they don't like it and that that's the bit that can be tricky like because you can have disagreements and like for example like just the uh I'll use as a working example because being the client has spoken about this at length because I I really felt that they should they probably should have done something for Eurovision it felt like a big moment client just isn't a big fan of Eurovision it just doesn't matter then as the individual yeah as the individual but also but like as a cultural Point thinks it's cheesy doesn't think it's cool I think and my argument was like look at Tick Tock like it's sponsoring Eurovision now they're really trying to make this more of a youth thing I think like that I think now is the time and we eventually agreed that like she basically said look I see your point I just don't think it's there yet and I'm like cool that's fine by me like that's a good discussion to have between park with those ideas for next year yeah I'll park it or like park it or give it someone else like it's just like that that was a grown-up good relationship which come from a good client relationship and I didn't throw my toys out of the plan I respectfully said I think that this is becoming more of a youth moment you should consider it and be ahead we're gonna do a giant yeah I think and it's and it and it's funny it's fine and you you kind of do like oh I have I I have one or two in in a career that spans like 10 years where a client didn't like the idea at the start and I really really fought for it but you have those like like yeah maybe once a year where you're so convinced you're right but you can be you've just like sometimes it's not worth having that fight and it's like I don't I don't think you and that's when creatives get reputation for being precious and so again I'm really flattered that you've had to think about no ego because like I think that's really important like I don't um yeah I don't I don't I don't I I don't get emotionally attached to either they're not my babies that are my vehicle to do my job well like and I think some people get that oh it's my baby I love this idea I'm like it's like you work for a company you don't even own it like it's like that's not your idea like that is property of Mischief HQ according to every legal paper so why be precious about it if a vehicle for you to do your job well do your job well and if the client says they don't like an idea like do I put it then they don't like your idea so find out why they don't like it and then adapt it and go through like you'll rarely get an Insight wrong that's that's the thing that if you get your Insight right yeah then there's an execution to fall out about like it's very like you've you've had a bit of a stink if someone says I have literally no idea what you're talking about like yeah that's not a true Insight or you've just made that up or that's not been well researched or something like that's when that's a mistake I think if you can do so that workflow at Mischief is you've got the team looking at the inside it's doing that research there then come to you or the you know whoever it is and they're more creative I'll be like we've got this can you run with it and then you'll be like okay let's get a group together let's work it out so if it will collaborative between the Strategic and a creative bit like for say for example it's like if you have the strategy guys should be doing more of the work to get you to towards the insights but as a creative team you should be coming up with insights as well because you've got a shape how you write the idea and fill it into the client and then the executional side of things becomes a bit more creative but then I think good strategists should be able to go here's my strategy here's my insight and here's how I think you could maybe turn it into an idea and I'd be like yeah good you should be able to do that because if you've just done this bit and this bit and this bit and then it's like poof over to you yeah I suspect that bit isn't very strong and so you you thought finish it off and then similar from the creative point of view if you jump straight to execution or you'll probably end up with something that's stunty but not very clever or well thought out or doesn't meet a Target and I I think that's what I was going to ask like do you ever I have to backwards engineer because you you've got a great execution and I guess you're you've already answered it by saying it's it's stunted it is then a stun like if you think of a great news hook or a picture piece or a little video idea but there's nothing to back it up do you try and find Titans back up or do you just I think you can like it depends it depends on how strongly you feel about something like I tend to that happens more when you're like cold pitching or you're doing something for New Biz like right because I always think like if you're in a good new business pitch the best new business clients in who all pitch Runners will appreciate that you're not going to nail it 100 because you literally have had them you've had them for maybe two three hours in the Pitch Perfect you've had a brief you've answered a few questions so good pitch Runners will know that you're never going to nail it 100 so if there's a bit much important of showing you're working as it is if it's GCSE math you get marked for showing you're working you get marked for the answer right the answer the answer you can sometimes get first and then if how you show your working like there is an idea I'm working on at the moment which I absolutely adore which was very much idea first which was um basically I recently discovered after Paul O'Grady died the language of pylori which is basically a language that gay men especially used to use to avoid detection um like when they were going about Soho and it's like some phrases you will have heard are still used it's basically gay Latin now so stuff like zush is a polari word it so if you zush something up if there donovada like me Dolly my dark like there's little okay after we've done this I'll show you in the dictionary but there's loads and I think God this could be a great pride idea because it basically faded out but like Judy and Clary for example big big user of it and like it's really popular in Drag and it gets used a lot of that coming through there's a beer called polari for example that served in like loads of gay bars and stuff like that so it's got this massive like cultural resonance Heritage I might and loads of people don't know what it is there are younger gay guys who don't know what it is because they've never had to use it and so and there's increasingly more of a historical appreciation for the struggle that came before in the gay community like I've got a glorious something here we should do a campaign about polari and like I think and then it's the fact right then you start working it back from who can we sell this to right because it's like right I don't think you can turn just each menu into polari because they haven't got all those words it's a little bit risky because a lot of the words are sexualized and so for example cottaging is a polari phrase that's come through so I need a grown-up client that's willing to put a bit of educational spin on it and then we started getting into translation and so they're like oh this could be fun what about Duolingo what about like Amazon and Alexa or the way we're doing it now if we're trying to work away to make it work for Alexa so you can speak polari to Alexa and Alexa will speak polari back to you or you could do like a little speech in Polaris that you can see it again it's just like that was an example of an idea that started at the idea phase right how can you run it back so do you do you kind of just go through your day today Greg with your eyes open collecting little things yeah they're going to draw somewhere and then you know you might pull them out when the right brief or client or project comes in yeah and everyone's got their sweet spot right and it's like and I I I I I I I like under I like un uncovered gems like and I think because I think they they work really well for media as well like it's little things like if you go on the BBC News website you'll see that there's all the serious news and then there's always like third or fourth best read on the site of a fun human interest story that's typically PR gold there and there's also there's some things that just like work like it say like you'll see an annual philipot hole campaign yeah always works like I think that I am obsessed with is Village Facebook groups it's like if you want to know what England is thinking join a village Facebook group and England is thinking someone needs to pick that fix the pothole my reception is bad I don't want to phone Master make the reception better yeah the three things that are driving this country yeah I don't want the roadworks to fix the problem Yeah well yeah the roadworks are the roadworks are here to fix a pothole a bastard and you just watch it unfold you understand like oh my God there's so much there's so many ideas on here you're going through like if you should just give yourself a diverse a thought but I I like I feel fated if I'd be like creative Magpie if like if you see something shiny like pick it up and see what the crack is and like dive into it a little bit more get a bit obsessed by something and like the more you're obsessed by something the more you'll be able to flex an idea to it because you'll understand it so much more yeah because you've dived into it if I Wikipedia wormholes are a good creative technique where you'll just know oh my God that's so much here we have to go all the way through like I thought um these little things that I thought McDonald's did a campaign I really liked the other way which I think I think with either ready 10 or it came directly from McDonald's I didn't see but they got Alan Shearer recreated a McDonald's advert yeah it was running time yeah it was really good yeah and over Fair like someone has had the knowledge but I think it was suggested it might have been Shola and miobi but to know that oh that advert was 25 years ago and like so therefore this will definitely work yeah so we created the Alan Church yeah from whatever yeah and so it's just like for someone someone's had a Blinder there and that is where most ideas come from with so like the best my probably my favorite theory is campaign we did at Mischief with um no I'll shut it so Greg favorite idea oh what what a seamless segue like um so I was just thinking about this um but it will be something we did for Asda and it was called delivering kindness and it was what I really liked about it was it won three Awards which was like the covid campaign of the Year award so we are always going to have that that's a forever title no unless it comes back again but yeah he called something else by then but so we're still to go where the covert title Champion hold of great forever Ad nauseam um and it was based on an Insight that like someone had said like the only person I've seen all week is my delivery driver and like it just went ping and you were like wow that after if delivery drivers are like the people on the ground about like that's unbelievable so we did a whole campaign around coaching uh their delivery drivers to spot the signs of loneliness and we relaxed and it went all the way up the reason I like it so much it went all the way up as to like um of course we had a commercial operation like so they have really strict delivery target times and they've relaxed them a bit so you could allow some time for a chat and so they were wearing badges that had um of it happy to chat on so they were clear vocal dial clear cue that if you were being on your own for however long which was very true for loads of people especially if they were um what's the word I forgot what the word was called um and it was magic right like it was really really lovely and it like this campaign absolutely banged and it just came from one person saying after all my delivery driver and then I remember the idea getting pieced together by so many different people and being like Oh we should train they should do some training with the raw voluntary service because they specialize in loneliness and then it was like oh someone that Asda said oh let's speak to everybody yeah after CEO launched it on his personal Instagram account and so you're there like that was buff and then that was and that was really good but I would love to have told you it was just like amazingly thought out process it's literally someone came in and said that's the first person I've seen and it just set everyone off and so I guess because you because the process is probably so ingrained in you it doesn't feel like a process it's like it's it's got to a level and it's like instinctive yeah I think so I think your ears and your eyes should be open right and it's like it and you should treat yourself to as many different sources as you can and variety should be spython like and like yeah on the off chance that there are young creative people listening that is like the one bit of advice I will always hold have you read these questions the classic Jonah Segway so Greg any advice for younger creators I was just thinking about this if it happened it was like yeah that is my the wide Source material like everyone good creative are exceptionally good in their sweet spot and they know what they read Dazed and Confused to read hypebeast they're super cool edgy like make the other you should also be reading the voice you should be reading black ballad that you should be reading the time if you should be reading the gardening section you should be doing every bit to get out like your media consumption should be wide and varied you shouldn't just be following on Instagram everyone that you are personally interested in you should be following some people that really piss you off and you should do that for your own health as much as you should do it for Creative Excellence as well it's like the other people's lives and how they're living it because you you are lit you're not here to do a job for a 30-something white blokes like yeah you who like football and yeah God it's like it's like you know the what's it the nails on nails and chalkboard footie just does me in like yeah but um I don't know but no that's it be well read like it's and well read doesn't mean like so how does that work at Mischief do you as a team get all the papers out sit around and read those yeah so we still do that like every morning like if I I don't think how does it work remotely so if you're in person we try and do that in person if you're not it's like take a bit of responsibility take a bit of personal responsibility go through we're we're basically three days in two days at home now so if you see it especially effectively when if people gather around and then there is so is it all the people yes and more often than not like most there will be the thing you've got to be a bit careful with papers it's just like that's always yesterday's move like there's always something that's happened online that you need to be especially good at so I thought say like look if you're a creative and you don't have Twitter I think you're an idiot because like that's where people are going to talk about stuff so if you think about what the device is Twitter is not as popular that used if they'll wear journalists hang though and it's still where they talk about it's where people talk about stuff and do hot takes on there so it's work it's really useful for that um so the tips are get on Twitter follow people you don't like yeah like just dip into cultures yeah don't don't normally yeah just diverse join a village yeah join a village Facebook group is the most practical one but diversify your list of media sources and whenever you get a new and like and that requires a commitment that really messes up like your algorithm like but it's you've got to do it and it should be it's like if like the simplest thing to do with match your match your clients and so think about what it is that they're interested in and then go through every so match your clients target audience yeah and yeah work out what it is yeah and then like look how special interests it's like why wouldn't you it's like I said I still like follow loads and loads of gardening stuff because we did we did a gardening project with Ricardo and I I was I became briefly obsessed with where this story would land and then every now and then you'll see something fly up and then that's come to fruition really nicely because there was an idea we won for for chafe which is a a gin brand from Diageo and there is some work we're doing there which is all about being connected with the countryside and by having these gardening things I've got a really strong opinion on rewilding which I didn't think I would have three months ago and one boy from London yeah like yeah it turns out quite a bit more green than like yeah you're right you've got a lovely plant behind you but it's the rest of us man like we're cutting up but yeah you just find yourself like yeah just diversify your reading list and you will be a better creative I love that what what do you think you'd be Greg if you weren't a creative boxing promoter yeah yeah that's that because I think I'd be really [ __ ] good at it like I cover I love puns I think I've got enough like I know enough lawyers who would be really strong at it and it's like the best boxing the best boxers have narrative and I think there are currently boxes out there who are not as popular as they should be that I think I could make more popular because you get the narrative right you get the narrative right and give them a thick nickname and make them a bad boy I'll give them like one line of the Fayette press conferences and it'd be really really fun yeah and like I like like I love like I love bulk thing anyway but I'm just like I'm amazed at how little it's evolved it's like even I mean Eddie Hearn has like really moved a game on but even that is still an evolution of the same way of doing things he's just done it a little bit better whether I think you could go in and make boxing really really interesting and like it's just it's just fun man I just feel like that or I would do something of a way I don't know if this is necessarily what I would do but I've always I'm interested in politics but a bit I'm interested in politics is that I'm obsessed with how they can't sound human and I'm just like I don't understand how you are representative of a population and you're so determined not to sound like anyone I've ever heard of like it just in terms of the way they answer questions yeah Keith Thurman's a massive football fan like genuinely a huge football fan and you hear him talk about football and you're like I know you're a massive football fan you've I've seen you play it you've got a season ticket like you sound like an idiot I gave like Jeremy corbyn who like is like I'm a I'm a steadfast interest so Corbin is like the Antichrist to me it's like he spoke about football so well like he sounds like a football fan and I think there is a role that you could do for the politicians where you can just say like I could bring you up to speed on the Zeitgeist and try to be like come on like left just sound like a normal person I think that would be fine but yeah boxing promoter or I'd be a journalist like I loved I always wanted to be a journalist but I wanted to be like an investigative journalist and no one's got to tie more money for that anymore so I was like I mean I love my I love we could do a little investigative document documentary together yeah that'd be really fun it would be like well yeah I'm not sure what I'd investigate but yeah I'd be banging up for investigating something yeah sure something's really Wilder yeah do rewilding and rewilding could we re-wild a boxing gym boxing ring just go green yeah like green party versus lib Dems in an all-round mashup I know you've been somehow answering my questions before I've been asking them so we're doing pretty well something I do have down here is mentors have you got a mentor is it something you recommend I thought you said mentor of it yeah no occasionally but uh yeah like I I thought I do mentoring and I have had mentees like it okay I was really lucky so when I've I've also just had really good bosses and so like especially lucky it mischieved my first boss there was is Greg Jones who was eight who was a creative director who became a managing director and so I always every time I've been at Mischief I've always had that mentorship from a creative point of view from the person who's the very top of the business that's great there's and was that kind of structured or was it more you kind of saw him looked up to him yeah like I think it was both it wasn't it wasn't by design it just it would have happened uh there are people I really look up to without doing formal mentorship like so I think they're chosen Cloud to Romans who I think like who I I like the cut of his gym and like I think he I think the stuff he's done at the moment is really impressive I'd like I like how they think and I like how they've got a great line of we're bored of boring PR which is I I don't think is a really good line um so yeah I have like here that really I really like there's a guy called Mark Perkins who works at Cal now but basically worked every big PR agency who I always follow him because he's a persistent like award-winning creative like wherever he goes if he goes to a big agency he'll win like big Awards if he goes to a smaller agency he'll win like low budget campaigns like he's just got a good clean way of thinking and so like how how important is it to look at like look over the fence at other agencies what they're doing what other creative directors are it's it's both valuable and completely pointless simultaneously sometimes like it's like so valuable in the sense where you might see something if like if you look at them as a collective and you see like right is there is there a direction of a meeting but like you're ultimately your ideas are dictated by your clients it's like so occasionally I get occasionally I get a bit jealous when I see when I see someone getting away really banging ideas for and I'm like if and you almost have you have this feeling if I'd got that brief I think I would have probably come up with something similar to that but I'm currently dealing with like a big client that is doing like three months worth of planning going into something that is a global strategy I don't get to do a quick win idea about it it's just not their sort of thing so so you can be you can both look at ideas and go that's a cracking idea but without it chewing you up because you know I don't currently have the client lift to facilitate that yeah and then vice versa if you go the other way so it can be completely pointless because you look at idego great idea I couldn't have done that there are some really helpful when you see ideas for you like oh there seems to be a real thing at the moment for like uh for example like I've never seen more Ramadan campaigns this year than at any other point in my entire career like it feels like everyone started to notice that Eid Mubarak existed for the first time this year and I thought that was quite interesting and that's something that I'll be taking into next year which brands did you see do something uh so Adidas do something I thought it's like sports brand have lead the way quite well but it's just also it's just General marketing like I think I thought Tesco do an advert that was like um it was like a happy Eid advert and you're the Philly day like I just haven't seen that but you don't see that for Diwali for example I don't think it the same mainstream level but there was um I thought that was interesting and so it's really it's really useful to see Trends and to see what's really up and like also just to see what's picking up Awards and what's winning and so like so I love like I like I love Taylor herring's work because I think they are they are like I think they are they are number one for stunt based stuff I like they've got they've got a style and I think if they're styled it works really well and it's like they're very visually arresting and they are but they have the brands that accommodate it and so when you do becomes self-fulfilling yeah and there's also there's a certain type of thing where like it's like I I I I need to word this carefully so it doesn't sound like I'm mugging them off but they have a they have a brand that is so successful for them it's like why change it's like like so the thing that people will say about them is that they all their stunt to you so yeah but their stunts are really good so what sort of thing and you're doing like a lot of their clients are publicity uh publicity clients right so do publicity like why would like you're Mucky if you don't sort of thing so so yeah I think it's the short answer is yes it's really helpful to look but like you don't look in in a sense of keeping up with the Joneses you look to see like if I had a client like that would I fought like that if I had a client like that would have done it like this and I I think what would you say is the dream brief to get or or is there such a thing um oh there's a dream brief to you individually but like but the dreambooster the ones that are really well written like like you're you know exactly what you're getting to it's like my least favorite my least favorite brief though you can have a britlight so if someone came to me with a boxing promotion brief and it was but it was a shambles and you didn't know what the target audience was really that would be my least favorite brief despite it being something that I'm really passionate about I'd rather have a really clear direction of things like my favorite question to ask for a brief is like right what what's an idea that you absolutely loved that had nothing to do with your your brand at all because then you thought we'll get a sense for what the person's like and you come through but so I don't I don't really have one because I've had like I've worked like part of Ethan I don't work in sports anymore is because I started to find it a bit boring and it's the sport is seasonal and it goes around and so like we were doing some amazing stuff for Under Armor and Anthony Joshua and then it was just like cool now what do we do for another three month flight it it was quite hard to maintain that sort of always on because it is so seasonal I know you do something amazing again and it was like it's all now it's summertime and what we're doing like I found it a bit I found it a bit dull so there's not a type of book I don't think like you just know what like you know when you get a really good one like there's a CR like we've just won am I now if we're not allowed to fade if bleep it out yeah but yeah we've just won a team GB account for the Olympics and that was sick and that came in and that was like it wasn't just like Yay the Olympics because I'm actually not that bothered about the Olympic of all the sports in there it's it's there with golf for me it's like I don't care about it when it's yeah a big one otherwise I don't really care but it's brief with so clean and so well written and it was like I was under absolutely no Illusions what the job was to do for us to win it was like right I reckon they're going to be speaking to sports agencies so I know exactly as Mischief is not a sport agency how we pitch ourselves we're going to go in as like we are going to put you from Backpages to front page if like we need these athletes to be famous but not just at Olympic times if I hear any ideas we think we can do it and it was just a supremely well written well-countered brief as we went through and like so that's yeah I don't really care what the topic is as long as if it's really clear and what it does so give me top three tips for a client when they're writing a brief oh good question what should what should be in it absolute musts so I'll start with what doesn't need to be in it which is to don't over audience like so I I hate pen portraits it's like our target audience is Jemima who is this and does David because literally nobody lived their life in one way like I'm both a dad and a massive boxing fan it's like if you just said this is aimed at 18 to 34 year old dad I'm 35 like it just sort of like does that mean it's not for me in many ways I think I'm younger than my 35 and in some ways I'm like an old man like it it I don't over obsess about the audience just about if the real basic point because what you'll find is then you'll just get a load of people that gunning it like this has to be Instagram this has to be here most important thing is what does success look like so are we trying to shift fails or are we trying to do a brand job or trying to figure out it's the single most important thing because it dictates everything because I might have an absolute blinding of a blind of an idea for awareness that delivereth awareness but it might not deliver engagement and then it needs a technical thing to do that so I think what sort of success look like has to be really clear and again don't over commercialized that which effort like look what if your boss's boss want to see which is ultimately how we all work right if you can do something that you can do something that was wildly popular and not wildly successful in terms of a commercial objective but if your boss's boss loved it it's wildly successful and it's done a job and people will always find the numbers to make it work um and then I'm a big fan of examples of work that you loved and examples of work you hated had that ever for a creative is just like if you find one of your ideas skewing too much that way and whatever doing too much that way it's wrong and within that it's just like look what's an idea you've been pitched a million times and you just don't like what's the obvious thing to pitch you and especially that's especially handy if you're dealing with really big brands of Mischief dove it's like what's the idea not to pitch and so like look we've worked with Lego now for coming up to best part of 10 years seven I think that's seven years but and it's like they would have been pitched by a and I I bet every I bet that they would have had ideas pitch to them by other agent thief and that would be like oh why don't we do extra reinforced socks for Lego because it really hurts when you stand on them and they're like yeah I mean you could do but that highlights a product negative and like yeah yeah and we're actually we're a really elevated brand that talks about like the importance of play to Children's development so something like that will just be gimmicky and it's not right for them even though I think it I think in principle that is a really good idea because if human Insight it's true like I think you probably could get a Lego stocking that would be reinforced yeah it's a good idea it's not right for Lego because they are so above that in fact so we funny enough we actually ended up doing a similar idea but for comic relief we had like Jacqueline jotho instead of running over a wall of fire uh whether you know doing fire walking she ran over like Lego for charity and like it worked in that setting because it's deliberately funny and comic relief coming through so that's a really important thing to ask the question because you could like you could accidentally get a client's back up through no fault of your own but it's just like what does success look like what's your boss's boss one I think it's a good question and like anything like just ask human questions like if I I love it when you go on to all agency briefings and and especially if it's a competitive like people are definitely trying to ask the question that makes them sound the most intelligent like don't ask that question ask the question it makes you sound a bit thick because you have to know and it's like it's like especially when I work with some of the MHP guys I'm like I am the person that asked the most questions because I'm a bit like right I know what the big talking points are in retail and stuff like I don't know what a big talking points are in cryptocurrency at the moment but like people keep on throwing around phases like bear Market I have no idea what that means like it tell me and so we'll go and I think you can ask your questions in a human way not in a business way with a human way it's like look who's on your case about this who do you need to impress and if you've got a good client relationship that can come that question becomes one of the most important questions you can ask if I you can have you can do like something that could have delivered a hundred sales brilliant it smashed everything but if your client really wanted their CEO to be in the time deliver them for you and the time do you know what I mean if I ask the questions in a human way is a good tip good good tips so last question well it's not really a question actually it's more of a more of a mini brief challenge if you're up for it I'm always game so my day rates coming up good uh it's a quick quad is there a minute rate yeah go Okay so creative minds this podcast yeah um if you were to PR it come up with a a stunt or a little PR hook or a big PR hook yeah what would you go for oh good question putting you on the spot so what are we we're a podcast we're basically providing ideas for rare Jam I think are we are we doing something to PR the podcast the other podcast right sweet so in which case I'm going to go like there's two stunty options here we're in the heart of shoreditch hoxton at the moment I think you could do a giant brain like make a massive brain but make it super colorful and sparkly and I think you go for a visual stunt if this is where creative happens above this building there will be a brain just literally a giant brain maybe you don't even say what the brain is for so people like what's the brain and float it about a little bit I think you've got a like that very to the point on Creative Minds I like literal like I think if you go hyper literally Alexa are um in-house design animation she's working she's she's working on a logo full creative minds and it does involve a big brain so okay so I'm on brand already yeah you asked a human question yeah what do you want it to stand for what do you want it to achieve yeah just well domination for me right well in which case what we might need if you matched up yeah James Bond villain Vibe they had me at James no no because he wants the world domination yeah Bob's not bothered yeah so no I mean I thought that you keep it simple right like it's a it's a discussion about talking about creativity like I think you could go through provision on that yeah all mine feed here I mean like purpose of everything at the moment you might need to donate a quid for every listener to some sort of creative charity that helped Minds um but no lie I think I think that's how I'd go I think you go visual for that something like that you've got an entertainment I would take a leaf out of the Taylor Herring Playbook and be like let's visualize what this is yeah okay yeah well leave it with us yeah I think I want a giant brain let me know what a butcher is yeah I find that yeah we just got to source of giant brain now but no yeah definitely not yeah like Monday Greg could have given you one better yeah yeah um right I think that's it nice how was that mate I really enjoyed that yeah did you enjoy it thanks so good so bad thank you